>>20560
gis are stupid, fukkem

>>20558
>3,250ft
>220 swift
lol, ADD 1000 fps and that'd be accurate

>>20561
every tactical larper who never even served who thinks theyre going to be shooting at anyone organized insists on short 11inch barrels too

>>20562
55gr 220 and 22-250 out of a 20 inch is going to be 3300
the mach 3.5 stuff is both lighter 40/50gr and out of full length 26 inch barrels
hot 243 and 6mm 55/58/60gr get that fast out of 20 inch though

>>20554
130+ years of service, the round you want was made 135+ years ago.

.6mm Lee Navy FMJ.

>>20519
For you

>>20563
>tactical larpers use 11"
The ONLY instance in which a civilian would conceivably shoot someone with an AR is in self defense on their own property, the vast majority of which would be within one's own home. Why would you need a 16" to ensure enough velocity for bullet tumbling at 200-300 yards for home defense? Are you Jeff Bezos? The people who advocate for 16-20" barrels are fantasizing about shooting people past 200 yards, which is fucking asinine. You're not some sort of boogaloo retard, are you?

>TLDR 6.8 slows down maneuver warfare and will kill American soldiers in LSCO due to poor comprehension of why 5.56 exists
Bureaucrats didn’t actually think about why 5.56 exists and they fell for the meme that mass-formation line infantry are coming back, but with armor
Afghanistan would not have been won with 6.8, nor does penetrating armor really matter in LSCO. The point of an infantryman (in offensive operations) is to suppress other infantry for a long period of time on the approach to a defended position while the mechanized guns kill everything an infantryman can’t. Suppression will inherently reduce the fact that anyone peeks up, 120mm-rated plates or not, they are not risking a bullet outside of a plate. Try being on the receiving side of high-volume gunfire for once and you’ll see why, plates or not, you’re not risking it
The problem here is the range overmatch of 6.8 comes with the price of less ammo per man, but due weight and volume. To use the range advantage of 6.8, you have to suppress with less ammo over a greater distance on the approach, and all of a sudden either the volume suffers (risking defenders getting cocky and returning fire, suppressing or killing your own troops) or you don’t have sufficient ammo when you reach the site. This also requires more frequent resupplies because more of less ammo is used per assault. It’s a temporal problem, not spatial; 5.56 was largely an optimal and economical solution based on lessons learned in the last major war
Infantrymen are not fighting BMPs with 6.8 or whatever extremely niche fantasy exists, either. Bradleys are fighting BMPs while infantry suppress short-range anti-tank teams and whatever vehicle wins that duel (typically Bradley kek) will almost certainly clean the floor with the rest. Bradley’s will fight ATGM teams long before 6.8’s range advantage becomes a relevant factor
Everyone is ignoring pre-assault fires too, which is fucking crazy. Just issue M995 and rape the trench

>>20567
Ran out of characters
Furthermore, issuing fancy explosives is better for defeating a defender because guns see guns, but explosives risk an arm and they typically negate any plate by obliterating organs and/or limbs. If you actually need to keep the objective intact, just go for M995 or upcoming high-velocity loads that kill things just as gooder at <50m as 6.8. You don’t have to have superhitler 9000jewtoespersecond rounds loaded 100% of the time if you’re concerned about barrel wear; battle drills already exist to prepare other weapon systems and loading a situational magazine isn’t different
6.8 is a very retarded decision and SF has already made their statement by saying fuck it and looking at the HICAR program. Big army will follow suit, eventually

>>20566
jeff bezos' LA mansion property isnt that big
and you would get a 16 inch because you dont have to fill out paper work or get a fucking muzzle brake that fucking extends it out to 16 inches

>>20567
>Afghanistan would not have been won
the fuck are you talking about
the taliban just waited out the US until they got bored while occasionally taking opportunistic potshots and IED setups

>>20567
6.8 doesnt even accomplish that
because theyre all using faggot ass 12 inch barrels like this faggot >>20566 likes shoving up his ass that practically turns all their m7s into heavier shittier 6.5 creedmoor guns with 6 moa

>>20570
Afghanistan is (was?) frequently cited as a reason why 6.8 exists, because le Taliban outranged US troops’ small arms (not the aircraft or vehicles but that’s an inconvenient truth)
I completely agree with you, for the record. It’s just one of the early arguments I remember to justify 6.8
>>20571
Correct
Each fix makes the whole program more retarded

>>20572
werent people getting 700 yard kills with 77grs?

>>20573
Probably, but again we need to ignore that because a general needs a retirement job and some junior generals need promotion points

Standard issue infantry body armor does not cover the whole body. Plenty of vital areas like face, neck, brachial artery (upper arm), groin and femoral artery (upper tighs) are not usually protected. Any shot in those areas will likely result in death.

Even armored areas are not immune to incapacitating damage. A shot in the helmet will probably result in a concussion, skull fracture or cervical damage. A shot in the chest or back can cause broken ribs, punctured lungs, spinal damage and even heart concussion. Those are severe injuries that will put anyone out of the fight and require urgent medical attention.

>>20511
The primary weapon in the last hundred-plus years has been high-explosive/fragmentation, not bullets. And body armor can't cover everything, just the core organs.

The proper answer is a PDW or carbine with guided and/or airbursting HE.

>>20572
With their superior 7.62x39?

>>20511
It's just needs more velocity.

>>20572
The Soviets fixed the range problem 60 years ago with the SVD. And they simply recycled a century old cartidge that is 7,62x54R. I'll take an SVD over some retarded 6,8 SBR or M7 any day of the week.

FFS, just having a lighter M14 and fixing the accuracy issues whould have sufficed.

>>20526
fucking loads. LvL3 for starters. Isnt rated for 556M855, but is rated 762M80 ball. Speed kills armor.

>>20579
Even 6.5 Grendel beats 308 for hits and energy at long range so it's not really true an improved m14 would be adequate

>>20547
In USMC bootcamp even, not even combat training, you do failure drills where you shoot the enemy in the chest and then sternum. Literal POG comms guys are taught how to beat Lvl4 plates.

>>20551
Because army ordinance is fucking retarded. 6.8mm will get more men killed than do any kind of good. Its the M14 2.0 and the m14 was absolute shit.
Its a weapon designed for an army that doesnt exist, to kill an enemy that doesnt exist.

>>20581
.308 is perfectly adequate for combat shots up to 800m. At this distance you're basically shooting to pin the enemy behind cover and keep heads down. 308 is perfectly fine for this and does not require to develop a whole new platform and is already well integrated in the logistics system.

>>20579
We fixed it to with DMR rifles. Took us a lot longer than the soviets, but its a solved issue.

>>20577
Don’t ask me to explain retards’ opinions. I think they meant x54 (in what gun?), but still a retarded justification

>>20585
That's what I'm saying. The range issue is solved and the average grunt does not need to be able to shoot sub-MOA groups at 600m to do his job.

>>20518
If you're clearing a room A1 is great.
Now shoot it in the situations that led to them calling for a new round in the first place.

>>20584
It's true, but better still for many reasons would be to rebarrel some team members kit to 6.5 grendel and they can be the ones spraying at 45 degrees

>>20586
My opinion, and I thought it was extremely obvious and everyone knew, was that Chinese soldiers will all have plates, all their rifles will be able to penetrate plates so the army shat bricks and quickly chose a hotter round. Sig won because of all the dodgy connections, but 223 wouldn't have done at any case. It's good for varmints but not fighting a peer force

>>20518
>5. SIG's 97gr high pressure Hydracore AP will bust Level IV and ESAPI reliably.
lmao you're so full of shit it's unbelievable.

>>20591
I'm guessing it probably would

A carbide steel needle at 8 million fps can penetrate anything make it happen

>>20591
It has a substantial sectional density advantage over 7.62x51 M993, dumbass, and goes 2,500ft/s out of an 11.5 because it's over 80k psi.
Run it out of a 20" if the opposing plates are especially stiff.
>>20592
SIG is very explicit it will.

>>20588
Man I love the sound of HICAR. Let's take M855A1 and make it go faster so it has more effective range out of a shorter barrel!

>>20594
Soldiers should run 20 inch and run over barrel suppressors. Lazy bastards wanting super short rifles because they're lighter

>>20580
That's not the case. Speed alone only kills steel.
1. Steel Level III easily handles M855. It loses to M193. Adept Armor has a very good article explaining why.
2. PE Level III loses to M855, beats M193 even though it's a third the weight of steel.
Level III ceramics will do both.
>>20575
You are not getting reliable behind armor blunt trauma out of a 5.56 unless the plates are extremely deficient, especially at combat distance.

>>20596
There should be HICAR DMRs is what I'm saying, or make the M7 / M8 a DMR and give it a long schlong if you need better terminal ballistics / need more barrier authority / need more core mass if the opposing armor is especially stiff (XSAPI class or above).
China has plates rated for 12.7x108mm B-32 API once, they're nine pounds and 1.44" thick, and with new developments like B4C-Al+AlN ceramic will drop into the 7lb range which is very reasonable. Might need .338 Norma for that.

>>20594
> It has a substantial sectional density advantage over 7.62x51 M993
Oh shit you are right

>>20517
>Burger mutts think they can hide their 300 pounds bodies behind such tiny plate

>>20598
Even with the plate it might disable the man if he's hit and that's really the objective after all

>>20517
>does nothing to protect your stomach where, if hit, will 100% doom you and make you die very painfully
explain this modern retardation?

>>20579
>M14
that worthless piece of shit is scrap metal

>>20601
Watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I&
>>20602
He doesn't know what a dangler is, and yes, you can get them rifle rated. If you have ergonomic concerns then buy a IIIA skirt from Jinwudun, hike it up, and wears plates over that.
>>20599
Hate SIG all you want, this 5.56 AP gets to play with cheat codes because it runs pissing hot.

>>20600
>organs get bigger as your body gains fat
Fucking Europeon retard trash.

>>20603
>m16
Fixed.

>>20519
It's honestly wild how few people understand proper strike face placement. Like news flash retard, your aortic arch is a lot more important to protect than your pancreas or liver or whatever. One will kill you in hours if shot, one will kill you in seconds to minutes.

>>20606
>t. Doesn't own any m1a variant

>>20579
>The Soviets fixed the range problem 60 years ago with the SVD.
Yes, the US has also used 7.62mm DMRs for a very long time now (and much better ones), the NGSW program is merely a scam.

>>20599
For anyone curious, the sectional density values are 0.289 for the 97gr Hydracore 5.56 super AP and only 0.203 for 7.62x51mm M993
97gr and 5.56 versus 128gr and 7.62.
More modern 7.62 APs are as follows:
1. 7.62x51 DM151 is 0.237
2. Nammo AP11LR, successor to M993 in Euro environments, is 0.269.
3. 7.62x51 Swiss P AP is 0.311 (note this is majority lead)
4. 7.62x54R 7N37 is 0.298. Note that this is majority tungsten carbide so it does HEAVILY outperform Swiss P AP.
5. Current 7.62x54R 7N51, successor to 7N37, is estimated 0.343.
Neither 7N37 or 7N51 are available in serious quantities, but will take the vast majority of plates to church.
6. A hypothetical 7.62x51 version of the SIG Hydracore AP is 231gr and has a resulting sectional density of 0.367, making it a real motherfucker.
7. DSG XMP 308gr super-long-core 7.62x51 AP has a sectional density of 0.489, but is down big time on velocity which results in lower kinetic energy density.

DSG XMP + 7.62x51 version of HICAR in an AR-10 would result in a round beyond the capability of 99.9% of plates. Said round however is impractical and unaffordable, making it a neat footnote.